Comments on: W3C Breakdown Roundup http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/ Everyone needs a hug. Sun, 06 Jul 2008 08:54:42 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.5.1 By: karl http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/#comment-2275 karl Thu, 27 Jul 2006 04:05:40 +0000 http://s2462.gridserver.com/wordpress/?p=214#comment-2275 <p>Many Thanks Kevin.</p> Many Thanks Kevin.

]]> By: Kevin Hale http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/#comment-2274 Kevin Hale Tue, 25 Jul 2006 16:25:17 +0000 http://s2462.gridserver.com/wordpress/?p=214#comment-2274 <p>Sorry Karl, didn't notice it in the Junk Comments folder till just now. It should now be up. The reason it got flagged is because of the number of links you have in there. We had some problems with spam and had to increase the filter potency recently. You should be good now.</p> Sorry Karl, didn’t notice it in the Junk Comments folder till just now. It should now be up. The reason it got flagged is because of the number of links you have in there. We had some problems with spam and had to increase the filter potency recently. You should be good now.

]]> By: karl http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/#comment-2273 karl Tue, 25 Jul 2006 01:59:59 +0000 http://s2462.gridserver.com/wordpress/?p=214#comment-2273 <p>Interesting. I made a comment here yesterday and it has not been moderated positively. In the spam box or … ?</p> Interesting. I made a comment here yesterday and it has not been moderated positively. In the spam box or … ?

]]> By: Nate K http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/#comment-2272 Nate K Mon, 24 Jul 2006 19:48:31 +0000 http://s2462.gridserver.com/wordpress/?p=214#comment-2272 <p>RE: Tobias</p> <p>Well said!</p> RE: Tobias

Well said!

]]> By: Mr. Frustrated http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/#comment-2271 Mr. Frustrated Mon, 24 Jul 2006 13:23:46 +0000 http://s2462.gridserver.com/wordpress/?p=214#comment-2271 <p>You are nuts if you think the standards would fall apart if the W3C went away (which it won't). Microsoft and others have a huge stake in standards.</p> You are nuts if you think the standards would fall apart if the W3C went away (which it won’t). Microsoft and others have a huge stake in standards.

]]> By: Tobias http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/#comment-2270 Tobias Mon, 24 Jul 2006 11:28:48 +0000 http://s2462.gridserver.com/wordpress/?p=214#comment-2270 <p>@Mr. Frustrated: You are making it really easy for yourself. Your arguments are shallow anf one-sided. Instead of spending your energy on attacking the others who also have an opinion on this, you should sit down and try to broader your point of view.</p> <p>What would happen if W3C failed & broke up is this: The large companies like M$ and Apple will rip the W3C standards apart and won't leave a chance / some room for any new NonCommercial organisation to come up. Then they'd all announce their own pseudo-standards and implement them in their browsers - trying to overcome the other competitors. Browsers would then move further & further apart from each other - leading to a true HellOnEarth-Scenario for Web-Designers & -Developers.</p> <p>M$ has been trying for years to claim 'standards' for the Web. And why? Because they thought that they were big enough to do so! Do you really want to give them an official invitation to do this thoroughly? They will not sit down nicely & play with the other kids. In fact, none of them is willing to play nicely with the other.</p> <p>The word 'standard' will then be as hollow as can be. Everyone will claim to set new standards - which means that those standards are none! Just look at what the guys from Redmont do when tackling with the OpenSource community! Seeing that, I am even afraid of trying to image what they'd do to the work of the W3C!</p> <p>A true standardisation takes so much time & effort. And it can only be done by a neutral faction. Therein lies the problem - you're not allowed to get big money because you might be influenced by it, you're always sitting between chairs, everybody expects the 'next big thing' from you, but nobody supports you because they loath your work as it steals their possibility to rule the market entirely. I wouldn't want to be a W3C-member - it would drive me mad in 24h. The W3C has the hardest job imaginable - so cut them some slack!</p> <p>Last but not least, W3C has already made wonderful plans for the future. Just look at CSS 3! I love them for this! It isn't their fault that the commercial side (which Mr.Frustrated foolishly claimed to be so bloody superior [I needed to get this one off - Now I feel so much better! ]) takes so long to implement the new standards. I mean, even Mozilla (which I love & support) does not yet support CSS 3 - probably because no other browser does it & thus it wouldn't make sense anyway. And with IE7 not even completeley supporting CSS 2, this won't change for another 6 years. That is not the fault of W3C!</p> <p>A word for those who still think they can do better: Go there and do it instead of whining here! The W3C will be glad for every helping hand. I know I couldn't do it better than they do - their task is so incomparibly complicated.</p> @Mr. Frustrated: You are making it really easy for yourself. Your arguments are shallow anf one-sided. Instead of spending your energy on attacking the others who also have an opinion on this, you should sit down and try to broader your point of view.

What would happen if W3C failed & broke up is this: The large companies like M$ and Apple will rip the W3C standards apart and won’t leave a chance / some room for any new NonCommercial organisation to come up. Then they’d all announce their own pseudo-standards and implement them in their browsers - trying to overcome the other competitors. Browsers would then move further & further apart from each other - leading to a true HellOnEarth-Scenario for Web-Designers & -Developers.

M$ has been trying for years to claim ‘standards’ for the Web. And why? Because they thought that they were big enough to do so! Do you really want to give them an official invitation to do this thoroughly? They will not sit down nicely & play with the other kids. In fact, none of them is willing to play nicely with the other.

The word ‘standard’ will then be as hollow as can be. Everyone will claim to set new standards - which means that those standards are none! Just look at what the guys from Redmont do when tackling with the OpenSource community! Seeing that, I am even afraid of trying to image what they’d do to the work of the W3C!

A true standardisation takes so much time & effort. And it can only be done by a neutral faction. Therein lies the problem - you’re not allowed to get big money because you might be influenced by it, you’re always sitting between chairs, everybody expects the ‘next big thing’ from you, but nobody supports you because they loath your work as it steals their possibility to rule the market entirely. I wouldn’t want to be a W3C-member - it would drive me mad in 24h. The W3C has the hardest job imaginable - so cut them some slack!

Last but not least, W3C has already made wonderful plans for the future. Just look at CSS 3! I love them for this! It isn’t their fault that the commercial side (which Mr.Frustrated foolishly claimed to be so bloody superior [I needed to get this one off - Now I feel so much better! ]) takes so long to implement the new standards. I mean, even Mozilla (which I love & support) does not yet support CSS 3 - probably because no other browser does it & thus it wouldn’t make sense anyway. And with IE7 not even completeley supporting CSS 2, this won’t change for another 6 years. That is not the fault of W3C!

A word for those who still think they can do better: Go there and do it instead of whining here! The W3C will be glad for every helping hand. I know I couldn’t do it better than they do - their task is so incomparibly complicated.

]]> By: karl http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/#comment-2269 karl Mon, 24 Jul 2006 06:35:56 +0000 http://s2462.gridserver.com/wordpress/?p=214#comment-2269 <p>Thanks Marjolein, to make this story correct. People are always inclined to shoot without reading.</p> <p>Bjoern is tackling a process issue.</p> <p>Jeffrey Z. is tackling a different issue but completely unrelated to Bjoern's email. See <a href="http://www.w3.org/QA/2006/07/a_peaceful_ear.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.w3.org/QA/2006/07/a_peaceful_ear.html</a></p> <p>People from the WHATWG are mostly part of the W3C CSS WG and also the WebAPI where they are writing the XMLHttpRequest specification. See <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20060619/" rel="nofollow">http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20060619/</a> and <a href="http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/" rel="nofollow">http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/</a></p> <p>Look at the names in the Acknowledgements section. <a href="http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20060619/#acknowledgements" rel="nofollow">http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20060619/#acknowledgements</a></p> Thanks Marjolein, to make this story correct. People are always inclined to shoot without reading.

Bjoern is tackling a process issue.

Jeffrey Z. is tackling a different issue but completely unrelated to Bjoern’s email. See http://www.w3.org/QA/2006/07/a_peaceful_ear.html

People from the WHATWG are mostly part of the W3C CSS WG and also the WebAPI where they are writing the XMLHttpRequest specification. See http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20060619/ and http://www.w3.org/2006/webapi/

Look at the names in the Acknowledgements section. http://www.w3.org/TR/2006/WD-XMLHttpRequest-20060619/#acknowledgements

]]> By: Marjolein Katsma http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/#comment-2268 Marjolein Katsma Sat, 22 Jul 2006 20:44:15 +0000 http://s2462.gridserver.com/wordpress/?p=214#comment-2268 <p>Bjoern Hoehrmann is <b>not</b> "leaving the W3C" - please read the <b>whole</b> mail you are linking to.</p> <blockquote>Leaving W3C QA Dev. (...) Well, that's it for me then; more time to work on the CSS and WebAPI specifications (...)</blockquote> <p>While his reasons for leaving the QA Dev. are sad enough, it's clear he's not leaving the W3C, just one (volunteer) activity.</p> Bjoern Hoehrmann is not “leaving the W3C” - please read the whole mail you are linking to.

Leaving W3C QA Dev. (…) Well, that’s it for me then; more time to work on the CSS and WebAPI specifications (…)

While his reasons for leaving the QA Dev. are sad enough, it’s clear he’s not leaving the W3C, just one (volunteer) activity.

]]> By: Mr. Frustrated http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/#comment-2267 Mr. Frustrated Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:35:44 +0000 http://s2462.gridserver.com/wordpress/?p=214#comment-2267 <p>"would you really be happy with standards developed on a basis of commercial strategy?"</p> <p>Are you kidding? Absolutely. What is it that you think drives the internet tubes anyway? You think this is all some kind of charity experiment?</p> <p>Winning some browser war would not have stopped innovation had the W3C been able to produce material in a timely fashion, material that we as developers could have pushed for, material that open source teams like, Oh...say the FireFox team could have implemented and we could have built test cases on.</p> <p>Can you imagine if FF had implemented innovative browser tech that we jumped all over on?</p> <p>What happened when "layers" came out? Was that because of some "recommendation"? No, it wasn't.</p> <p>I'll say it again, the best advances we ever had were made because of the browser wars (competition) and because of commerce. Plain and simple.</p> “would you really be happy with standards developed on a basis of commercial strategy?”

Are you kidding? Absolutely. What is it that you think drives the internet tubes anyway? You think this is all some kind of charity experiment?

Winning some browser war would not have stopped innovation had the W3C been able to produce material in a timely fashion, material that we as developers could have pushed for, material that open source teams like, Oh…say the FireFox team could have implemented and we could have built test cases on.

Can you imagine if FF had implemented innovative browser tech that we jumped all over on?

What happened when “layers” came out? Was that because of some “recommendation”? No, it wasn’t.

I’ll say it again, the best advances we ever had were made because of the browser wars (competition) and because of commerce. Plain and simple.

]]> By: Marcel http://particletree.com/notebook/w3c-breakdown-roundup/#comment-2266 Marcel Fri, 21 Jul 2006 21:29:59 +0000 http://s2462.gridserver.com/wordpress/?p=214#comment-2266 <p>The W3C has little to do with the lack of innovation. The 'BIG' browser figured it had won the war and stopped innovating. So regardless of the specs the W3C put out, everyone still had to code to the lowest common denominator. Even if W3C got it's act together you would still end up hoping that the browser devs support the standards, because at the moment they don't. In the absence of a W3C type organisation, would you really be happy with standards developed on a basis of commercial strategy?</p> The W3C has little to do with the lack of innovation. The ‘BIG’ browser figured it had won the war and stopped innovating. So regardless of the specs the W3C put out, everyone still had to code to the lowest common denominator. Even if W3C got it’s act together you would still end up hoping that the browser devs support the standards, because at the moment they don’t. In the absence of a W3C type organisation, would you really be happy with standards developed on a basis of commercial strategy?

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